…in my humble estimation, of course. And many, many thanks are owed to my debating partner in crime,
The Amazing Bill, who is infinitely more patient and polite than I obviously am. Bill rocks.
Anyway, here are all the comments on the ACLU / Hutto prison article on
Unfair Park. To paraphrase the dumbass in question, calling someone a moron is probably the last resort put forth by someone that has no argument.
(And, yes, I know “dumbass” is the equivalent. But he started it. Or ended it, as the case may be…)
“They treat us like we’re nothing”17 CommentsWhatever you think about illegal immigration, you understand that the people we are discussing here are coming here fleeing persecution? We are then jailing some of them, some of whom are children, right? How do I feel about that as an American, as a Christian? Well, I’m appalled. It reflects badly on our country and as us as citizens that we just look away. Shame on us. Shame.
1) Comment by bill h — March 6, 2007 @ 3:25 pm
…Which is why it’s so good that you do what you do, Bill. You kick ass. Sez me.
By the way, does anyone happen to know who runs the facility in question? Is it a private company by chance…?
2) Comment by Danny — March 6, 2007 @ 3:56 pm
According to the ACLU
“Pursuant to a contract between Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and the private prison company, Corrections Corporation of America, Inc. (CCA), Hutto is a converted maximum-security prison that bills itself as a “Family Residential Facility.”
Thanks for the kind word Danny.
3) Comment by bill h — March 6, 2007 @ 4:21 pm
Thanks, Bill. You just defined where the problem lies, at least to my mind…
Somebody PLEASE tell me why we’re allowing our government to source out industries with moral (at the very least) obligations - but no legal regulations, of course - to uphold international (or American) laws regarding human rights, military intelligence, homeland security, the Geneva Conventions, immigration laws, etc., to private corporations. When you do, this is the kind of shit that happens.
Abu Graib, Guantanamo Bay, the tens of thousands of contract employees running around Iraq and Afghanistan with automatic weapons and absolute no oversight whatsoever…All this story is is what happens when unregulated privitization happens on U.S. soil. I really, sincerely hope Amnesty International is paying attention to this story also. Not that the current administration gives a shit what those folks think…
This completely sickens me.
4) Comment by Danny — March 6, 2007 @ 5:26 pm
Now I know why this country is in trouble. It’s reporters that distort the facts and the ACLU that perpetuates them.
First these people chose to bring these children to this country, they are not American citizens. The parents are resisting voluntary deportations and this facility houses them in the interim approximately 30 to 60 days at most. Do you really think they would return for their hearing? Duh…
This was an effort to keep the families together while their status was determined. The alternative is to separate into segregated facilities or go back to “Catch and Release”.
This facility is a converted minimum custody prison, but it is modern and clean. No one is abused.
If you believe everything the Observer and ACLU reports you have a real problem with reality. Next time instead of tugging at the heart strings, tug at the truth.
5) Comment by Kestrel — March 7, 2007 @ 7:48 am
Kestrel, (beautiful name, lovely falcon, often seen around town.)
It’s important to bear in mind that some of these people are Asylum applicants. They are resisting deportation, because they are claiming persecution in their country of origin. Asylum applicants are often not detained and typically do return for their hearings. I’ve personally seen that many many times.
6) Comment by bill h — March 7, 2007 @ 8:24 am
For years we had a wonderful catch and release policy on our southern border. We’ll release you just promise to show up for your hearing. How many showed up for their hearing not many. It’s time to get tough on illegal immigration, as far as I’m concerned they can all sit in detention pending their hearings
7) Comment by Tom — March 7, 2007 @ 10:56 am
Billy h,
Come now, Canada, Lithuania, Honduras, maybe Somalia if they are christian and tell everyone they love Americans, but the fact is most will not seek political asylum until they are detained for immigration violations.
The nonsense in the article about Medical care. They have a small clinic on site, although not staffed 24/7 medical care is available if needed.
They have outdoor play grounds, indoor Gym, and TV. Clothing is provided if needed plus a healthy diet, really shameful No Butler or Spa.
Billy, maybe you would be willing to open your home to these people, It’s possible they are security threats. You know Hezbollah trains their suicide bombers very young. If you are willing to expose my family to a possible threat, shouldn’t yours face the same threat.
8) Comment by Kestrel — March 7, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
I’m making a very narrow point. I’m addressing my comments primarily about Asylum seekers.
The families and children of Asylum seekers should not, in my opinion be jailed. The following report from the Washington Post discusses one of the people incarcerated.
Kestrel, I have known alot of Asylum seekers, all of whom were free, waiting on Court Dates. they could have disappeared and did not, showing up for court dates, because they believe in our system of justice. Some, no all, of them entered the country illegally, because it was virtually impossible for them to enter legally. Somalis in particular come from a country of no infrastructure. Some of them had been tortured, jailed because of their pro-democracy activities, or for being Christian. Many of them turned themselves in to the authorities, as did some of these people. Yes, I realize that some people abuse the system. Yes, I realize that there are security risks. I am expressing my own opinion that it is a risk, I think we should take.
“The report recommended that ICE parole asylum-seekers while they await the outcome of their hearings. It also said that immigrant families not eligible for parole should be released to special shelters or other homelike settings run by nonprofit groups and be required to participate in electronic monitoring or an intensive supervision program that would use a combination of electronic ankle bracelets, home visits and telephone reporting.
The 72-page report also criticized the educational services for children; the food service and rushed feeding times for children; the health care, especially for vulnerable children and pregnant women; the therapeutic mental health care as insufficient or culturally inappropriate; and the recreation time as inadequate for children. The review said that families were being held for months in Hutto and for years in the case of the longer-established Berks facility.
The report also cited inappropriate disciplinary practices used against adults and children, including threats of separation, verbal abuse and withholding recreation or using temperature control, particularly extremely cold conditions, as punishment.
Hosen, who traveled with Mustafa on an inner tube across the Rio Grande from Mexico and insisted that a stranger in Texas call the Border Patrol so she could surrender to authorities, lived in Hutto from June 30 to Jan. 30.
Granted political asylum and now living temporarily in a home for immigrant women and children in Austin, Hosen said that she and other parents in Hutto were threatened regularly with separation from their children for minor infractions such as youngsters running inside the prison. She lost 30 pounds while detained, and her son lost weight and suffered from diarrhea. Concerned about her son’s health, Hosen asked for a multivitamin for him but was denied the request, she said.”
billy
9) Comment by bill h — March 7, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
What you are talking about is spending more Tax dollars on people that shouldn’t be here. If someone catered to my every whim I wouldn’t want to leave either.
The facility in Taylor is for temporary detention for hearings. Most have hearings within 45 days. If they are there longer it’s because they appeal the decision of the magistrate. So, if they are held for long periods it’s because they chose to stay. No They don’t cook Anjara, Sopa De Mondongo or Chicken Taquitos. There is playground equipment and soccer balls. Yes, some toys too. Again, They can leave at any time they volunteer to self deport. The Hilton it’s not Motel 8 maybe.
I don’t have the luxury to rely on journalist for perceived truths, they have an agenda the majority of the time. I do believe what I’ve seen and experienced myself. If you are relying on a report from the ACLU, you need to trash it and go see for yourself. If it were up to the ACLU we would have already lost this country to anarchism.
If we don’t protect our sovereignty as a country we won’t have a country.
10) Comment by Kestrel — March 7, 2007 @ 5:11 pm
I understand your frustration, but the issue is whether our country will continue to provide sanctuary for refugees. I think we should. You say,”What you are talking about is spending more Tax dollars on people that shouldn’t be here.” It is not true that people coming here fleeing persecution, shouldn’t be here.
I don’t think it’s coddling, to provide a non- custodial place for people to live, as they pursue their legal rights to apply for asylum. Our Country has always welcomed people fleeing persecution. For goodness sake, that’s who the Pilgrims were.
You seem to have first hand knowledge of the facility, that I don’t have. I haven’t seen it, and maybe you have. My point is that it is custodial, a prison, even a nice one, is not a place for kids and families, who are seeking refuge here. You and I will just have to agree to disagree as to what should happen while they wait for their day in court
Okay, on to something else,
blessings
billy
11) Comment by bill h — March 7, 2007 @ 7:36 pm
Most refugees of political persecution flee to adjoining countries. Somalia refugees usually go across the border to Ethiopia, much safer than trying for the United States, especially after the Battle of Ras Kamboni.
Well, anyway Homeland Security is a vital interest of mine and these are dangerous times. Compassion with weighted caution must be exercised to keep us safe.
Enjoyed the discussion.
God Bless,
KESTREL
12) Comment by Kestrel — March 7, 2007 @ 10:32 pm
I can’t decide which makes me feel more ill…the story itself or the flat-out racist, hateful and closed-minded comments from Kestrel. Kes, if your condescension in general and your indifference and hostility toward persons not lucky enough to be born in the U.S. is a reflection of ANY measurable portion of American society, then I am truly embarrassed to share this soil with you.
And I know you were addressing Bill’s comments, but the original point I was trying to make is that most of this can be traced directly to the privatization of the most sensitive and crucial industries. Our government is so consumed with making obscenely rich corporations even richer by “awarding” them the operations of functions and institutions that SHOULD BE overseen by the federal government. Human rights, military intelligence and operations, prison systems, veterans’ health care - most of which should have to uphold international laws and regulations (if not basic common sense and decency) - are all sold to the highest bidder. And usually those bidders have direct ties to the folks “awarding” the jobs. Which is very convenient, of course.
As an example (and speaking of veterans’ health care), here’s a blurb from an email I received today from Americans United for Change. Yes, I’m sure you’ll dismiss it the way you have any other information that doesn’t agree with your narrow views, but at some point doesn’t the information begin to gel into something resembling an accurate snapshot of what is going on? Or is it simply not true because you say it isn’t…?
=============
What do you get when you mix Halliburton and health care? Walter Reed.
The stories of abysmal living conditions at Walter Reed Medical Center are bad enough. But there’s more to the story.
To cut costs, the support services and facilities management at Walter Reed were outsourced to a company called IAP — which is run by a former Halliburton official and whose board consists of people like Dan Quayle. If IAP sounds familiar, that’s probably because it’s the same contractor that was asked to deliver relief services to Katrina victims but came up short.
The lack of responsibility is not a new development, nor is it an isolated incident. Stories similar to Walter Reed have cropped up all across the country, and it’s important that people know the truth behind what really happened.
The privatization of support services has proven grossly ineffective and lacks the kind of accountability that our government is founded upon. In the case of Walter Reed, it drove out skilled doctors, psychologists, and caseworkers in favor of penny-pinching government contractors.
First it was Iraq, then Katrina, and now this. The disturbing stories from Walter Reed Medical Center have unleashed huge amounts of criticism, name-calling, and finger-pointing — but little accountability. This nickel-and-dimed approach to serving those in need is par for the course in the Bush Administration.
Americans United for Change
www.americansunitedforchange.org
13) Comment by Danny — March 8, 2007 @ 10:59 am
Danny,
Racism is an argument put forth by someone that has no argument. Anyway, enforcing laws are not racist, the law is blind. I think a dose of truth might have that sickening effect on you. I’ll try not to give it to you in such a large dose.
You need not be embarrassed, you can leave the cover of the blanket of freedom; I have provided for you and cuddle close to the likes of Hugo Chavez. People like yourself makes grandiose comments on the human condition without the true experience or knowledge of it.
As for Walter Reed the civilians fall under military control and supervision, this was an absolute failure of those in command. Our warriors deserve the best and nothing less.
If you had been paying attention my argument with Billy was, being informed and not trusting everything the media and ACLU spoon feeds you. But, you wanted to jump in with personal attacks of racism. So, don’t be surprised at my response. I deal with the real world were ever it might take me, I would suggest you do the same.
14) Comment by Kestrel — March 8, 2007 @ 7:42 pm
No, “racism” is an argument put forth in response to actions or attitudes that are racist. For example, presumptuous comments like, “They don’t cook Anjara, Sopa De Mondongo or Chicken Taquitos…” One could also argue that immediately accusing someone you don’t agree with of being a commie pinko (”the likes of Hugo Chavez”) is a pretty cheap, meaningless shot. Not to mention the fact that most people stopped doing that sort of thing at least twenty years ago. Which, perhaps not coincidentally, seems to be where your ideals seem most comfortable. But if you want to remove talk of racism and Hugo Chavez from the argument, that’s certainly preferable to me.
This “truth” to which you refer…Do you have anything more specific you’d like to provide? Personally, I would never make the assumption that any of my beliefs are “truth”…merely what I believe to be true. You can certainly change my perspective by providing a bit more information. For someone to refer to anything they’re saying as “truth” is a pretty clear indication that they’ve hung the “do not disturb” sign outside the door to their mind a long time ago. Unlike the impression I get of you, I’ll gladly change my opinion when I have evidence that compels me to do so.
You’re correct in stating the law is blind. As well it should be. Which makes it all the more imperative that we as people are not. We create the laws to govern ourselves, but we also change or overturn them when we feel the moral justification to do so. No laws exist in perpetuity. Unfortunately, a sad example of this is probably your leader Dubya and his disregard for habeas corpus. We’re seeing the ugly results of our current administration’s intentional disregard for human rights, international law, and basic human dignity…all over the world – or at least in places where we can make some money – and back here at home.
You’re also absolutely correct with regard to my tendency to make grandiose comments (in fact, I think I just did it again…oops). I’ll give you that. But I do so in the hopes that, if someone thinks I’m full of shit, they can not only tell me so, but they can also tell me WHY I’m full of shit. I’ve there’s something going on that I don’t know about (and I’m not completely naïve…I know there always is), by all means, please…fill me the fuck in. I’m here to learn, not preach. Even if I do occasionally fall into the trap of coming off as preachy…
You keep telling people to be informed, to not believe everything “the media and ACLU” tells us. I couldn’t agree more. Is the basis for your assumption that Bill and I are doing so simply the fact that we don’t agree with you? What information have you read that has allowed you to form the “truth” you so proudly possess? And what exactly is the “true experience or knowledge” you keep referring to? Please…enlighten us.
And stop fucking calling him “Billy.” His name is Bill, he’s a good man and he deserves to be spoken to with more respect than you seem willing to give anyone else.
15) Comment by Danny — March 9, 2007 @ 1:31 pm
You haven’t a clue you moron.
16) Comment by Kestrel — March 9, 2007 @ 10:22 pm
I think you just told us everything we need to know about you and your “truth”…whoever you are. Nicely done.
17) Comment by Danny — March 12, 2007 @ 9:20 am
Labels: idiot politicians, know your enemies, lies our government tells us, media heroes, miscellaneous criminals, plugs (ACS), racism, reform, stuff that sucks, willful ignorance
